crestron@groups.io | DM16x16 EDID with HDR

DM16x16 EDID with HDR

ckangis Всі повідомлення цього користувача #255389 Hi All, Does anyone know what the secret handshake is to enable HDR within an EDID for DM chassis'??? Our setup is a Sony 715ES and a Trinnov Altitude16. Everything we do will either get Atmos and no HDR, or HDR and no Atmos... I know that they don't have anything to do with each other, BTW... I have an EDID that I've Pulled from the projector. This provides 4K/HDR but no hi-res audio I have an EDID that I've pulled from the Trinnov. This provides Hi-res audio, but no 4K (It's set up as audio only on its own DM output) Using the EDID Tool in ToolBox, I start with The Trinnov file, save as a new file, then Update the video resolutions to match what the projector file has. The only difference is the projector file has 'Custom' VESA Block Preferred and Second Detailed Timing descriptors, which are not found in the modify lists. These are 1920 and 1280 resolutions so I'm assuming that it doesn't really matter.... Everything else is the same. The bottom line is that when the new EDID file with duplicated resolutions is loaded, I still don't get HDR!!! $ 40K of equipment that is not performing correctly... Digital Giveth, Digital Taketh Anyone have any ideas??? TIA!
Thorsten Köhler Всі повідомлення цього користувача #255390 Hi Chris, just some random thoughts: Which output are you using on the Altitude? If it´s an older unit, only output 2 is capable of the full range. The Altitude can be pretty picky about EDID changes. Always do a “refresh EDID” on the device or do a power cycle If I remember correctly, the DM-stuff has some compression going on for HDR content. For home cinema applications, we always try to avoid signal distribution and go for a direct connection. You don´t mention a video processor in the chain, so it sounds as if you want to send an unprocessed HDR image to the projector and let the projector do the tonemapping. That´s a terrible idea since the 715ES does a horrible job on its own with HDR material. You might want to consider adding a video processor like the madVR Envy (our choice) or a Lumagen into the chain. That would provide excellent tonemapping and also solve the issue of not sending HDR over to the projector since both are sending only an SDR signal out to the projector. If I find the time, I could probably do some testing as I have an Altitude 32 and a MD8x8 matrix here in the room next door. Cheers, Thorsten Von: crestron@groups.io <crestron@groups.io> Im Auftrag von ckangis Gesendet: Samstag, 23. November 2024 05:34 An: crestron@groups.io Betreff: [crestron] DM16x16 EDID with HDR Hi All, Does anyone know what the secret handshake is to enable HDR within an EDID for DM chassis'??? Our setup is a Sony 715ES and a Trinnov Altitude16. Everything we do will either get Atmos and no HDR, or HDR and no Atmos... I know that they don't have anything to do with each other, BTW... I have an EDID that I've Pulled from the projector. This provides 4K/HDR but no hi-res audio I have an EDID that I've pulled from the Trinnov. This provides Hi-res audio, but no 4K (It's set up as audio only on its own DM output) Using the EDID Tool in ToolBox, I start with The Trinnov file, save as a new file, then Update the video resolutions to match what the projector file has. The only difference is the projector file has 'Custom' VESA Block Preferred and Second Detailed Timing descriptors, which are not found in the modify lists. These are 1920 and 1280 resolutions so I'm assuming that it doesn't really matter.... Everything else is the same. The bottom line is that when the new EDID file with duplicated resolutions is loaded, I still don't get HDR!!! $ 40K of equipment that is not performing correctly... Digital Giveth, Digital Taketh Anyone have any ideas??? TIA!
ckangis Всі повідомлення цього користувача #255392 On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 03:21 AM, Thorsten Köhler wrote: Which output are you using on the Altitude? If it´s an older unit, only output 2 is capable of the full range. The Altitude can be pretty picky about EDID changes. Always do a “refresh EDID” on the device or do a power cycle If I remember correctly, the DM-stuff has some compression going on for HDR content. For home cinema applications, we always try to avoid signal distribution and go for a direct connection. You don´t mention a video processor in the chain, so it sounds as if you want to send an unprocessed HDR image to the projector and let the projector do the tonemapping. That´s a terrible idea since the 715ES does a horrible job on its own with HDR material. You might want to consider adding a video processor like the madVR Envy (our choice) or a Lumagen into the chain. That would provide excellent tonemapping and also solve the issue of not sending HDR over to the projector since both are sending only an SDR signal out to the projector. Thanks for the input Thorsten! - We're not using the TNV outputs. Its an audio 'end-point' via its own RMC 4KZ. - Regarding the TNV and EDID, are you saying that when we change the EDIDs, we should do some sort of reset after update? - We are considering re working our whole setup to make the Theater essentially a stand-alone setup for AV. - "solve the issue of not sending HDR over to the projector since both are sending only an SDR signal out to the projector." When you say this are you saying that the VidProc is taking in the HDR, processing it and sending an 'Enhanced' SDR signal to the projector? I.E. and SDR signal that looks like an HDR signal? thus, the projector just delivers the enhanced picture without having to process the HDR itself (which you feel it does a bad job)? This is all really good, helpful information, though the crux of my question was about how to format the video setting in an EDID for DM so that the source (KScape) with show available HDR titles. The see-saw of HDR or Atmos is the issue with the EDIDs. Again, I've tried to copy the video settings of the projector EDID and place them with the TNV EDID but when I do this, the KScape says that the EDID does not support HDR and subsequently hides the HDR content... It would be really great if the EDID tool could just copy the video settings from the Projector EDID and the Audio Settings from the TNV and be done, But no one at Crestron has indicated that this is possible (Which is shocking to me...) We really aren't able to get to doing tweeky things, because we're stuck on just getting basic things to work...I should be used to this...:)
Thorsten Köhler Всі повідомлення цього користувача #255395 Just send out a reply with an embedded screenshot – that doesn´t seem to have gone through. So here again without screenshot: Hi Chris, „- We're not using the TNV outputs. Its an audio 'end-point' via its own RMC 4KZ.“ Hm, this, I don´t completely understand. I meant the Trinnov HDMI outputs. The Altitude has 2 of them. Can you share a bit more info on the system design? “- Regarding the TNV and EDID, are you saying that when we change the EDIDs, we should do some sort of reset after update?” Yes, in the Trinnov web-interface, there´s a button to refresh EDID settings. This is also a good place to look for further information about the supported formats. “*- "solve the issue of not sending HDR over to the projector since both are sending only an SDR signal out to the projector."* When you say this are you saying that the VidProc is taking in the HDR, processing it and sending an 'Enhanced' SDR signal to the projector? I.E. and SDR signal that looks like an HDR signal? thus, the projector just delivers the enhanced picture without having to process the HDR itself (which you feel it does a bad job)?” Sort of, yes. A projector is only capable of displaying SDR dynamic range. HDR is mastered towards 1000nits as a minimum. Depending on the screen size and screen gain, I guess the 715ES will throw something between 40 and 80nits onto the screen. So you need a mechanism to squeeze high dynamic range of the source material into the very low dynamic range of the projected image. When using static tone mapping, you define a fixed maximum nits value and map the whole movie into this range. This is pretty limited, but the 715ES can only do it this way. So you´ll end up with a very mediocre picture this way. A lot of clipping will happen at the low or high brightness end. With dynamic tone mapping, the algorithm analyzes every single picture of the video screen, find the darkest and the brightest pixel and then uses the whole range of what the display device is capable of to display the image. This is very roughly what a video processor like a madVR Envy (our preferred choice) or the Lumagen can do (besides a lot of other nice things). Since the resulting image is only using SDR, you don´t need to send it as HDR anymore. In fact, you want to avoid sending it as HDR as you want to prevent the display/projector from doing its own tone mapping, ending up with double tonemapping. This way, you can turn any SDR projector into a HDR projector. 😊 (however, there are other benefits like extended color gamut within HDR content) With regards to EDID, a standard EDID block incl. HDR and Atmos should do the trick. If I find the time, I can play a little bit with my setup tomorrow. But as I mentioned in the beginning, your actual system setup is not 100% clear to me. Cheers, Thorsten Von: crestron@groups.io <crestron@groups.io> Im Auftrag von ckangis Gesendet: Samstag, 23. November 2024 16:25 An: crestron@groups.io Betreff: Re: [crestron] DM16x16 EDID with HDR On Sat, Nov 23, 2024 at 03:21 AM, Thorsten Köhler wrote: Which output are you using on the Altitude? If it´s an older unit, only output 2 is capable of the full range. The Altitude can be pretty picky about EDID changes. Always do a “refresh EDID” on the device or do a power cycle If I remember correctly, the DM-stuff has some compression going on for HDR content. For home cinema applications, we always try to avoid signal distribution and go for a direct connection. You don´t mention a video processor in the chain, so it sounds as if you want to send an unprocessed HDR image to the projector and let the projector do the tonemapping. That´s a terrible idea since the 715ES does a horrible job on its own with HDR material. You might want to consider adding a video processor like the madVR Envy (our choice) or a Lumagen into the chain. That would provide excellent tonemapping and also solve the issue of not sending HDR over to the projector since both are sending only an SDR signal out to the projector. Thanks for the input Thorsten! - We're not using the TNV outputs. Its an audio 'end-point' via its own RMC 4KZ. - Regarding the TNV and EDID, are you saying that when we change the EDIDs, we should do some sort of reset after update? - We are considering re working our whole setup to make the Theater essentially a stand-alone setup for AV. *- "solve the issue of not sending HDR over to the projector since both are sending only an SDR signal out to the projector.***" When you say this are you saying that the VidProc is taking in the HDR, processing it and sending an 'Enhanced' SDR signal to the projector? I.E. and SDR signal that looks like an HDR signal? thus, the projector just delivers the enhanced picture without having to process the HDR itself (which you feel it does a bad job)? This is all really good, helpful information, though the crux of my question was about how to format the video setting in an EDID for DM so that the source (KScape) with show available HDR titles. The see-saw of HDR or Atmos is the issue with the EDIDs. Again, I've tried to copy the video settings of the projector EDID and place them with the TNV EDID but when I do this, the KScape says that the EDID does not support HDR and subsequently hides the HDR content... It would be really great if the EDID tool could just copy the video settings from the Projector EDID and the Audio Settings from the TNV and be done, But no one at Crestron has indicated that this is possible (Which is shocking to me...) We really aren't able to get to doing tweeky things, because we're stuck on just getting basic things to work...I should be used to this...:)
ckangis Всі повідомлення цього користувача #255396 Змінено Thank you Thorsten! This is a real education for me on this particular subject (HDR, etc.). As early on in the hi-res (4K) business, nothing was reliable so I down-res'd things for client sanity and sort of checked out. Your comments make me want to get brushed up and going again! As to our setup (Though we're going to reconfigure things), we have a Kscape Strato and dedicated Apple TV, both set for 4K operation. The rest of the rooms are basically 2K distribution. The Sources input into DM16x16/4KZ input cards. The dual 4KZ output card feeds separate RMC-4KZ units: one for the 715 projector, and the other for the TNV which is located in the Theater rack. We route the chosen source to both outputs. Sources have the same EDID. We have plans to move the TNV into the main rack and route the sources directly into it, and feed the projector from it. We were able to construct an appropriate EDID by temporarily feeding the projector from the TNV and capturing the settings that way (BS that we cannot merge A and V settings into one file...) This 'solved' things, but now we are seeing video drop-outs, at least with AppleTV non-HDR content... It just pisses us off... Ugghh! I know that we're missing something, but we are at a loss as to what to look for... Also, Tell me your thoughts on why you like the Envy over the Lumagen? I have fond memories of the Lumagen, though I haven't dealt with them for almost a decade now... TIA!!
Thorsten Köhler Всі повідомлення цього користувача #255416 Hi Chris, OK, now i understand the setup. Well, I guess that´s the reason why we prefer to connect everything directly. Any chance to at least connect the sources directly to the Trinnov and then just distribute the video via the 4KZ? With regards to madVR vs. Lumagen: I´m just a madVR guy. I´ve started more than ten years ago with the madVR PC software and then we jumped immediately onto the Envy as soon it became available in early 2020. The developer is living in the same city as I do, so there´s a close relationship. I had a Lumagen for a couple of weeks but never got a handle onto it. It´s just all too cryptic and old-school. Of course there are technical pros and cons to each of the two devices, but we just stick to the Envy as it doesn´t make sense for us to be experts in both. Cheers, Thorsten Von: crestron@groups.io <crestron@groups.io> Im Auftrag von ckangis Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. November 2024 03:04 An: crestron@groups.io Betreff: Re: [crestron] DM16x16 EDID with HDR [Edited Message Follows] Thank you Thorsten! This is a real education for me on this particular subject (HDR, etc.). As early on in the hi-res (4K) business, nothing was reliable so I down-res'd things for client sanity and sort of checked out. Your comments make me want to get brushed up and going again! As to our setup (Though we're going to reconfigure things), we have a Kscape Strato and dedicated Apple TV, both set for 4K operation. The rest of the rooms are basically 2K distribution. The Sources input into DM16x16/4KZ input cards. The dual 4KZ output card feeds separate RMC-4KZ units: one for the 715 projector, and the other for the TNV which is located in the Theater rack. We route the chosen source to both outputs. Sources have the same EDID. We have plans to move the TNV into the main rack and route the sources directly into it, and feed the projector from it. We were able to construct an appropriate EDID by temporarily feeding the projector from the TNV and capturing the settings that way (BS that we cannot merge A and V settings into one file...) This 'solved' things, but now we are seeing video drop-outs, at least with AppleTV non-HDR content... It just pisses us off... Ugghh! I know that we're missing something, but we are at a loss as to what to look for... Also, Tell me your thoughts on why you like the Envy over the Lumagen? I have fond memories of the Lumagen, though I haven't dealt with them for almost a decade now... TIA!!

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