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I was wondering if someone can help me either find the right/equivalent relay symbol/part file. What I'm working with is a very old, analog switch relay, Price Electric Model 6250. I'm working to use this relay to create an impulse and see the effects on an antenna and what will be radiated. The basic circuit is a DC source (capable of going from 0-20k Vdc; V- (I'm using the negative output with V+ being the return)) connected to a 1uF cap which should then be connected to the relay. When the relay is activated this impulse from the cap will be directed to the antenna. I'm seeking some assistance with the relay for LTSpice. I'm trying to find either an equivalent model or a new design.
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Do you realise that you are planning to make a
highly-illegal spark transmitter, that will likely cause severe
interference with all radio communication over a wide area? Plan
now how you will spend your time in jail.
On 2024-11-26 18:33, rushtonwestcott
via groups.io wrote:
I was wondering if someone can help me either find the
right/equivalent relay symbol/part file. What I'm working with
is a very old, analog switch relay, Price Electric Model
6250. I'm working to use this relay to create an impulse and see
the effects on an antenna and what will be radiated. The basic
circuit is a DC source (capable of going from 0-20k Vdc; V- (I'm
using the negative output with V+ being the return)) connected
to a 1uF cap which should then be connected to the relay. When
the relay is activated this impulse from the cap will be
directed to the antenna. I'm seeking some assistance with the
relay for LTSpice. I'm trying to find either an equivalent model
or a new design.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best Wishes
John Woodgate
Keep trying
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Not only that, you probably need a vacuum relay.
I have no idea how to model that in ANYSpice
Murray
Do you realise that you are planning to make a
highly-illegal spark transmitter, that will likely cause severe
interference with all radio communication over a wide area? Plan
now how you will spend your time in jail.
On 2024-11-26 18:33, rushtonwestcott
via groups.io wrote:
I was wondering if someone can help me either find the
right/equivalent relay symbol/part file. What I'm working with
is a very old, analog switch relay, Price Electric Model
6250. I'm working to use this relay to create an impulse and see
the effects on an antenna and what will be radiated. The basic
circuit is a DC source (capable of going from 0-20k Vdc; V- (I'm
using the negative output with V+ being the return)) connected
to a 1uF cap which should then be connected to the relay. When
the relay is activated this impulse from the cap will be
directed to the antenna. I'm seeking some assistance with the
relay for LTSpice. I'm trying to find either an equivalent model
or a new design.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best Wishes
John Woodgate
Keep trying
|
From the point of view of SPICE (including LTspice), a relay is just a SWitch component.
It can be configured with parasitics for resistance, etc., or they can be added externally in the model circuit.
The DC source and capacitor are standard components, and also configurable.
An antenna is probably the most difficult to simulate realistically, but there should be prior attempts in Group’s Files archive.
What are you hoping to find out by simulating the ayatem?
Dave
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From: LTspice@groups.io <LTspice@groups.io> On Behalf Of
rushtonwestcott via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2024 10:33 AM
To: LTspice@groups.io
Subject: EXTERNAL: [LTspice] Relay Project
I was wondering if someone can help me either find the right/equivalent relay symbol/part file. What I'm working with is a very old, analog switch relay,
Price Electric Model 6250.
I'm working to use this relay to create an impulse and see the effects on an antenna and what will be radiated. The basic circuit is a DC source (capable of going from 0-20k Vdc; V- (I'm using the negative output with V+ being the return))
connected to a 1uF cap which should then be connected to the relay. When the relay is activated this impulse from the cap will be directed to the antenna. I'm seeking some assistance with the relay for LTSpice. I'm trying to find either an equivalent model
or a new design.
|
On Tue, Nov 26, 2024 at 11:29 AM, Bell, Dave wrote:
From the point of view of SPICE (including LTspice), a relay is just a SWitch component.
It can be configured with parasitics for resistance, etc., or they can be added externally in the model circuit.
The DC source and capacitor are standard components, and also configurable.
An antenna is probably the most difficult to simulate realistically, but there should be prior attempts in Group’s Files archive.
What are you hoping to find out by simulating the ayatem?
Nothing with the antenna, I was simply describing the system. I planned on simulating a simple resistive load so that I may see a potential output possibility for low voltages.
I can't find a switch that is representative of the relay I've linked and was seeking help on developing a model for it.
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OK, fair question.
What features of the relay are you looking to model?
Coil resistance and inductance? Not really relevant to the pulse model, only to the driving circuit.
Contact resistance, capacitance of the open contacts? Easy to add to a SW()
Wiring inductance? Not exactly part of the relay, but could be significant; easy!
Contact bounce? Simulate that with the pulsed voltage source that feeds the control inputs of the SW().
Dave
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From: LTspice@groups.io <LTspice@groups.io> On Behalf Of
rushtonwestcott via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2024 11:35 AM
To: LTspice@groups.io
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [LTspice] Relay Project
On Tue, Nov 26, 2024 at 11:29 AM, Bell, Dave wrote:
From the point of view of SPICE (including LTspice), a relay is just a SWitch component.
It can be configured with parasitics for resistance, etc., or they can be added externally in the model circuit.
The DC source and capacitor are standard components, and also configurable.
An antenna is probably the most difficult to simulate realistically, but there should be prior attempts in Group’s Files archive.
What are you hoping to find out by simulating the ayatem?
Nothing with the antenna, I was simply describing the system. I planned on simulating a simple resistive load so that I may see a potential output possibility for low voltages.
I can't find a switch that is representative of the relay I've linked and was seeking help on developing a model for it.
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On 11/26/24 1:31 PM, rushtonwestcott via groups.io wrote: A spark transmitter is not illegal, unless you can provide detailed documentation to corroborate your statement. Outlawed shortly after tuned circuits became practical. In the U.S., see FCC regulations, wherein it states: "2.201(f) Type B emission: As an exception to the above principles, damped waves are symbolized in the Commission's rules and regulations as type B emission. The use of type B emissions is forbidden." Damped waves being the term used for spark transmitters. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47-- http://davesrocketworks.comDavid Schultz
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I just uploaded a simple antenna & relay model for discussion.
Dave
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On Tue, Nov 26, 2024 at 12:08 PM, Bell, Dave wrote:
I just uploaded a simple antenna & relay model for discussion.
Thank You Dave
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On Tue, Nov 26, 2024 at 11:59 AM, David Schultz wrote:
Damped waves being the term used for spark transmitters.
Thanks for this information.
It truly is not pertinent to my circumstance and test setup (shielded and isolated environment) and was only introduced to give a visual of what the relay is being used for, which again was the model I was requesting help characterizing.
It's a very simple relay as far as I can tell, but since it's old and I can't find any documentation, I was reaching out on this forum to see if anyone could lend support.
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On Tue, Nov 26, 2024 at 12:08 PM, Bell, Dave wrote:
I just uploaded a simple antenna & relay model for discussion.
Extremely Helpful! I don't have enough data to answer your other questions, but for now a this model should really help establish some baseline info.
Moving forward though I will certainly keep the other questions in mind and if I can answer them I'll update the model
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Unless you live inside a Faraday cage, I strongly recommend not going in the direction of a spark gap transmitter. They are quite illegal. The fact that you were taught (or believed) that they are not, is most concerning. The fact that they were important to the early days of radio, certainly does not make them OK. They were massive RFI generators, creating lots of broadband noise (or signal). That wasn't a problem when there were no other transmitters or receivers in the neighborhood, but it is in most of the 20th century, and today.
Do you have a fully metallic room to do your tests inside? Including where the antenna is? That is the kind of "shielding" you should have. If you don't have that, I advise you not to go there. Shielding bits of the circuit won't help keep you out of prison. I am very concerned that you seem to be ignorant about the effects of radiating massive RFI.
In my opinion, modeling the relay is trivial. The real task is everything else. You mentioned modeling the antenna as a simple resistive load, but that is not modeling your system. Spark gap transmitters generated RF by exciting resonances, and that definitely includes the antenna. The antenna might be key to making it work right - not only as a radiator of RF, but as a generator of RF. It's probably attached to a coil and capacitor and they work in tandem.
The other thing that's missing from your description, is the spark gap itself. How are you doing that, and how will you model it? The spark gap is not the relay. The relay just switches a circuit closed or open. The spark gap exhibits nonlinearity which is kind of key here.
I think the only way this discussion is "not pertinent to your circumstance", is if you plan to never apply power to your circuit. If you want to build something that looks like a spark gap transmitter, and show how it works by means of LTspice simulations only, then that is OK - as long as you never ever connect it to a power source.
Andy
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Andy, the OP never said he was “building a spark-gap transmitter”; no mention of a spark gap, either.
“I'm working to use this relay to create an impulse and see the effects on an antenna and what will be radiated.”
I think it was John Woodgate who characterized the project as building one…
Dave
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From: LTspice@groups.io <LTspice@groups.io> On Behalf Of
Andy I via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2024 2:06 PM
To: LTspice@groups.io
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [LTspice] Relay Project
Unless you live inside a Faraday cage, I strongly recommend not going in the direction of a spark gap transmitter. They are quite illegal. The fact that you were taught (or believed) that they are not, is most concerning. The fact that
they were important to the early days of radio, certainly does not make them OK. They were massive RFI generators, creating lots of broadband noise (or signal). That wasn't a problem when there were no other transmitters or receivers in the neighborhood,
but it is in most of the 20th century, and today.
Do you have a fully metallic room to do your tests inside? Including where the antenna is? That is the kind of "shielding" you should have. If you don't have that, I advise you not to go there. Shielding bits of the circuit won't help
keep you out of prison. I am very concerned that you seem to be ignorant about the effects of radiating massive RFI.
In my opinion, modeling the relay is trivial. The real task is everything else. You mentioned modeling the antenna as a simple resistive load, but that is not modeling your system. Spark gap transmitters generated RF by exciting resonances,
and that definitely includes the antenna. The antenna might be key to making it work right - not only as a radiator of RF, but as a generator or RF. It's probably attached to a coil and capacitor and they work in tandem.
The other thing that's missing from your description, is the spark gap itself. How are you doing that, and how will you model it? The spark gap is not the relay. The relay just switches a circuit closed or open. The spark gap exhibits
nonlinearity which is kind of key here.
I think the only way this discussion is "not pertinent to your circumstance", is if you plan to never apply power to your circuit. If you want to build something that
looks like a spark gap transmitter, and show how it works by means of LTspice simulations
only, then that is OK - as long as you never ever connect it to a power source.
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That may be. But then why is he interested in this particular relay model, unless that is the one he purchased and plans to use?
And why will his test setup be "shielded and isolated", unless he intends to build it and use it?
It seems to be he is building something, and we already know it has the hallmarks of being a spark gap transmitter, and we know it's illegal to use one of those. He claimed they are legal. I am not getting much confidence here.
Andy
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Well, he has said 'what will be radiated', so
I think my interpretation is valid.
On 2024-11-26 22:12, Bell, Dave via
groups.io wrote:
Andy, the OP never said he was “building a
spark-gap transmitter”; no mention of a spark gap, either.
“I'm working to use this relay to create an
impulse and see the effects on an antenna and what will be
radiated.”
I think it was John Woodgate who
characterized the project as building one…
Dave
Unless you live inside a Faraday cage, I
strongly recommend not going in the direction of a spark gap
transmitter. They are quite illegal. The fact that you
were taught (or believed) that they are not, is most
concerning. The fact that they were important to the early
days of radio, certainly does not make them OK. They were
massive RFI generators, creating lots of broadband noise (or
signal). That wasn't a problem when there were no other
transmitters or receivers in the neighborhood, but it is in
most of the 20th century, and today.
Do you have a fully metallic room to do
your tests inside? Including where the antenna is? That is
the kind of "shielding" you should have. If you don't have
that, I advise you not to go there. Shielding bits of the
circuit won't help keep you out of prison. I am very
concerned that you seem to be ignorant about the effects of
radiating massive RFI.
In my opinion, modeling the relay is
trivial. The real task is everything else. You mentioned
modeling the antenna as a simple resistive load, but that is
not modeling your system. Spark gap transmitters generated
RF by exciting resonances, and that definitely includes the
antenna. The antenna might be key to making it work right -
not only as a radiator of RF, but as a generator or RF.
It's probably attached to a coil and capacitor and they work
in tandem.
The other thing that's missing from your
description, is the spark gap itself. How are you doing
that, and how will you model it? The spark gap is not the
relay. The relay just switches a circuit closed or open.
The spark gap exhibits nonlinearity which is kind of key
here.
I think the only way this discussion is
"not pertinent to your circumstance", is if you plan to
never apply power to your circuit. If you want to build
something that
looks like a spark gap transmitter, and show how it
works by means of LTspice simulations
only, then that is OK - as long as you never ever
connect it to a power source.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best Wishes
John Woodgate
Keep trying
|
On Tue, Nov 26, 2024 at 01:48 PM, <rushtonwestcott@...> wrote:
... The basic circuit is a DC source (capable of going from 0-20k Vdc; V- (I'm using the negative output with V+ being the return)) connected to a 1uF cap which should then be connected to the relay. When the relay is activated this impulse from the cap will be directed to the antenna. ...
Can you draw that circuit? Is it a series circuit? How about a simple LTspice schematic (.ASC file), one that is not meant to be simulated?
How does an impulse get "directed to the antenna"? It sounds like some sort of magic.
Schematics help greatly.
Andy
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Spark gap, or not, owning a device that radiates broadband energy, and simulating it, are not illegal (speaking for my own country) (Maybe). Operating it is another story.
Actually, in the US, if it doesn't actually serve a communications purpose, and does interfere with operation of other technologies, there are likely plenty of FCC (choose your government's relevant agency) rule 'Parts' that discuss interference and superfluous (pointless?) transmission of signals.
Anyway, I hope the OP does find suitable models to achieve the intended simulation...and I'll stop commenting, as I don't think I have anything constructive that helps.
Good luck and have a nice day (take two; they're shorter this time of year (where I am).
Murray
Well, he has said 'what will be radiated', so
I think my interpretation is valid.
On 2024-11-26 22:12, Bell, Dave via
groups.io wrote:
Andy, the OP never said he was “building a
spark-gap transmitter”; no mention of a spark gap, either.
“I'm working to use this relay to create an
impulse and see the effects on an antenna and what will be
radiated.”
I think it was John Woodgate who
characterized the project as building one…
Dave
Unless you live inside a Faraday cage, I
strongly recommend not going in the direction of a spark gap
transmitter. They are quite illegal. The fact that you
were taught (or believed) that they are not, is most
concerning. The fact that they were important to the early
days of radio, certainly does not make them OK. They were
massive RFI generators, creating lots of broadband noise (or
signal). That wasn't a problem when there were no other
transmitters or receivers in the neighborhood, but it is in
most of the 20th century, and today.
Do you have a fully metallic room to do
your tests inside? Including where the antenna is? That is
the kind of "shielding" you should have. If you don't have
that, I advise you not to go there. Shielding bits of the
circuit won't help keep you out of prison. I am very
concerned that you seem to be ignorant about the effects of
radiating massive RFI.
In my opinion, modeling the relay is
trivial. The real task is everything else. You mentioned
modeling the antenna as a simple resistive load, but that is
not modeling your system. Spark gap transmitters generated
RF by exciting resonances, and that definitely includes the
antenna. The antenna might be key to making it work right -
not only as a radiator of RF, but as a generator or RF.
It's probably attached to a coil and capacitor and they work
in tandem.
The other thing that's missing from your
description, is the spark gap itself. How are you doing
that, and how will you model it? The spark gap is not the
relay. The relay just switches a circuit closed or open.
The spark gap exhibits nonlinearity which is kind of key
here.
I think the only way this discussion is
"not pertinent to your circumstance", is if you plan to
never apply power to your circuit. If you want to build
something that
looks like a spark gap transmitter, and show how it
works by means of LTspice simulations
only, then that is OK - as long as you never ever
connect it to a power source.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best Wishes
John Woodgate
Keep trying
|
Can't resist...
When I was a kid near Philadelphia, PA, The Franklin Institute (science museum) had a functional lightning generation exhibit, right next to the amateur radio station.
The latter was shut down during the lightning demonstrations, because they "didn't play well together".
That may be. But then why is he interested in this particular relay model, unless that is the one he purchased and plans to use?
And why will his test setup be "shielded and isolated", unless he intends to build it and use it?
It seems to be he is building something, and we already know it has the hallmarks of being a spark gap transmitter, and we know it's illegal to use one of those. He claimed they are legal. I am not getting much confidence here.
Andy
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When I was about 14, I picked up a Mil surplus UHF transmitter’s oscillator/front end plug-in “drawer”.
One doorknob shaped vacuum tube, and a pair of silver plated rods with another crosswise, connected to a front panel tuning dial (only calibrated 0-100) and a leadscrew.
Powered it up from bench supplies, and discovered that even without any antenna, I could clobber TV and maybe FM radios half a block away. By careful adjustment, I could get an ear-splitting whistle from some neighbor’s living room.
A couple years later, we also ran a pirate AM station out of a friend’s pickup from a hill outside town. That was another gem from the glory days of real Electronic Surplus stores! Another “exciter” chassis, that “only” output 100 Watts
or so, below 2MHz…
Dave
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From: LTspice@groups.io <LTspice@groups.io> On Behalf Of
murrayatuptown via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2024 3:25 PM
To: LTspice@groups.io
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [LTspice] Relay Project
Can't resist...
When I was a kid near Philadelphia, PA, The Franklin Institute (science museum) had a functional lightning generation exhibit, right next to the amateur radio station.
The latter was shut down during the lightning demonstrations, because they "didn't play well together".
That may be. But then why is he interested in this particular relay model, unless that is the one he purchased and plans to use?
And why will his test setup be "shielded and isolated", unless he intends to build it and use it?
It seems to be he is building something, and we already know it has the hallmarks of being a spark gap transmitter, and we know it's illegal to use one of those. He claimed they are legal. I am not getting much confidence here.
--
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I would argue that the relay model is a "nothing", derived with a fair amount of accuracy, from the voltage-controlled switch.
The antenna, now, THAT is a really big challenge. A resistor is, at best, a very poor antenna model. What happens with a capacitor dumped into a resistor by a relay is what anyone who has taken Electricity2 in high school should already know about. It will bear scarce similarity to same with an antenna instead of resistor.
Jim
On 11/26/2024 11:35 AM PST rushtonwestcott via groups.io <rushtonwestcott@...> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 26, 2024 at 11:29 AM, Bell, Dave wrote:
From the point of view of SPICE (including LTspice), a relay is just a SWitch component.
It can be configured with parasitics for resistance, etc., or they can be added externally in the model circuit.
The DC source and capacitor are standard components, and also configurable.
An antenna is probably the most difficult to simulate realistically, but there should be prior attempts in Group’s Files archive.
What are you hoping to find out by simulating the ayatem?
Nothing with the antenna, I was simply describing the system. I planned on simulating a simple resistive load so that I may see a potential output possibility for low voltages.
I can't find a switch that is representative of the relay I've linked and was seeking help on developing a model for it.
|
John Woodgate
murrayatuptown
Bell, Dave