|
Dear All,
I know this is partially off the original topic. But the possibility that certain workshop equipment may affect or even damage everyday equipment, viz a flat screen TV etc., seems very important. So I hope you will understand my request, as I have no knowledge of such matters. Thus may I have some detailed advice.
I am not into Tungsten Inert Gas (TIG) welding, (as mentioned, it’s technically called Gas Tungsten Arc Welding, GTAW - thank you for the info.) I only undertake a very limited amount of Metal Inert Gas (MIG) and Gas, plus I did do some ‘old style’ Arc welding some years ago.
So, presumably as it says (TIG) has a non eroding electrode. (Plus an inert consumable rod.) Then the TIG Arc causes/releases a large amount of unrefined/uncontolled Radio Frequency (RF) signals. This then swamps and damages any electronics in the vicinity. Am I correct? A simple Y or N will be more than OK, thankyou.
The power of the TIG arc (welder) and the distance to the piece of electronic equipment, increases or decreases the risk of damage. Again correct? (Presumably the inverse square law applies. So the manufacturer could(?) give guidance about the risks?)
Does that mean MIG is not so bad, as it has a sacrificial electrode? Again, I have no idea. Anyone know?
Plus - Thanks for the info on the solar storms. Very interesting. (Everyday is a day at school, even when you have seen a lot of Summers.)
Thanks in anticipation,
David Williams (From across the Pond. Nr Oxford.)
On 9 Dec 2024, at 20:59, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:
Welders & flat screen TV's too . I had a bud that spent many
thousand $$ on a Lincoln water cooled TIG welder . First time he
used it took out his fairly new flatscreen TV . Good thing he was
between wife's when that happened .
animal
On 12/9/24 11:24 AM, Bruce J via
groups.io wrote:
Well it’s not just welders and LED lights…
" SOLAR STORMS ARE DRIVING FARMERS CRAZY: Planting
season is a hectic time for farmers. For many, it means
working through the night using GPS-guided tractors to plant
thousands of acres in a short period of time. The season was
in full swing on May 10, 2024, when the biggest solar storm in
decades struck Earth.
"Our
tractors acted like they were demon possessed," says Elaine
Ramstad, a Spaceweather.com reader and aurora chaser who helps
out on a family farm in Northern Minnesota. "All my cousins
called me during the May 10th storm to tell me that 'my
auroras' were driving them crazy while they were planting.”
Probably not Johannes’ problem, though…:-)
My shop is lit by LED bulbs or fixtures I got at Costco 4
or 5 years back to replace the old flickering fluorescent
ones; but I haven’t noticed any issues in use with my
calipers until the batteries get low, which produces just
those kinds of weird issues.
When I GTAW the HF start really messes with all of my
DRO's, and digital calipers/micrometers. 😮 It turns
them on, turns them off, the displays show erroneous
readings. I thought they were possessed until I figured
out it was the TIG's HF start that was causing the
problem. 😂
--
Bruce Johnson
The less a man knows about how sausages and laws are
made, the easier it is to steal his vote and give him
botulism.
|
Here's the real time experience . My bud that lost the TV MIG
welded just about every day & never had any problems with
anything cept maybe some rusty metal . Like mentioned he was using
the Tig for the first . The TIG welder was maybe 15-18 feet as the
crow flies from his TV set . His house is built of Slump block so
there was a grouted wall right next to the welder & between
the welder & the TV , so there was 6" + of some pretty heavy
material between the 2 units . After the fact he did some
re-reading of the manual & they mentioned could cause
problem,s with electronics . Moral of his story read & re=read
the & then rinse & repeat the manual . I went over after
& ran him a new circuit with the welder having it's own
breaker panel & ground rod . Now-a-days he unplugs his
electronics before he fires up the TIG .
That's just about as factual as I can get on this & hope
it helps to answer yer questions . He has since remarried &
proceeds with caution on a daily basis .
thanks
animal
On 12/9/24 3:16 PM, DAVID WILLIAMS via
groups.io wrote:
переключити цитоване повідомлення
Показати цитований текст
Dear All,
I know this is partially off the original topic. But the
possibility that certain workshop equipment may affect or even
damage everyday equipment, viz a flat screen TV etc., seems very
important. So I hope you will understand my request, as I have
no knowledge of such matters. Thus may I have some detailed
advice.
I am not into Tungsten Inert Gas (TIG) welding, (as
mentioned, it’s technically called Gas Tungsten Arc Welding,
GTAW - thank you for the info.) I only undertake a very limited
amount of Metal Inert Gas (MIG) and Gas, plus I did do some ‘old
style’ Arc welding some years ago.
So, presumably as it says (TIG) has a non eroding electrode.
(Plus an inert consumable rod.)
Then the TIG Arc causes/releases a large amount of
unrefined/uncontolled Radio Frequency (RF) signals. This then
swamps and damages any electronics in the vicinity. Am I
correct?
A simple Y or N will be more than OK, thankyou.
The power of the TIG arc (welder) and the distance to the
piece of electronic equipment, increases or decreases the risk
of damage. Again correct? (Presumably the inverse square law
applies. So the manufacturer could(?) give guidance about the
risks?)
Does that mean MIG is not so bad, as it has a sacrificial
electrode? Again, I have no idea. Anyone know?
Plus - Thanks for the info on the solar storms. Very
interesting. (Everyday is a day at school, even when you have
seen a lot of Summers.)
Thanks in anticipation,
David Williams
(From across the Pond. Nr Oxford.)
Welders & flat screen TV's too . I had a bud that
spent many thousand $$ on a Lincoln water cooled TIG
welder . First time he used it took out his fairly new
flatscreen TV . Good thing he was between wife's when
that happened .
animal
On 12/9/24 11:24 AM, Bruce J
via groups.io wrote:
Well it’s not just welders and LED lights…
" SOLAR STORMS ARE DRIVING FARMERS
CRAZY: Planting
season is a hectic time for farmers. For many, it
means working through the night using GPS-guided
tractors to plant thousands of acres in a short
period of time. The season was in full swing on May
10, 2024, when the biggest solar storm in decades
struck Earth.
"Our
tractors acted like they were demon possessed," says
Elaine Ramstad, a Spaceweather.com reader and aurora
chaser who helps out on a family farm in Northern
Minnesota. "All my cousins called me during the May
10th storm to tell me that 'my auroras' were driving
them crazy while they were planting.”
Probably not Johannes’ problem, though…:-)
My shop is lit by LED bulbs or fixtures I got at
Costco 4 or 5 years back to replace the old
flickering fluorescent ones; but I haven’t noticed
any issues in use with my calipers until the
batteries get low, which produces just those kinds
of weird issues.
When I GTAW the HF start really messes with
all of my DRO's, and digital
calipers/micrometers. 😮 It turns them on,
turns them off, the displays show erroneous
readings. I thought they were possessed until
I figured out it was the TIG's HF start that
was causing the problem. 😂
--
Bruce Johnson
The less a man knows about how sausages and
laws are made, the easier it is to steal his
vote and give him botulism.
|
David - there is no simple Y or N, sorry.
But since you asked -
"Then the TIG Arc causes/releases a large amount of unrefined/uncontrolled
Radio Frequency (RF) signals." Y N Maybe Sort of, it is actually a spectrum Y
"This then swamps and damages any
electronics in the vicinity. Am I correct? Y Maybe Maybe
The power of the TIG arc (welder) and the distance to the piece of
electronic equipment, increases or decreases the risk of damage. Generally Y
Does that mean MIG is not so bad, as it has a sacrificial electrode? N Doesn't matter
Any arc (mig, tig, plasma cutters, arc lamps in theaters, Jacob's ladders, Tesla coils, Neon lights, spark plugs, etc.) will generate electromagnetic radiation. Whether the electrode is consumable or not is immaterial. It is the arc which is formed when the voltage between the electrodes is enough that the electrons on one electrode can jump to the other that causes the radiation.
The strength of electromagnetic field is much higher in some arcs than others.
The sensitivity of the electronic device will vary without any way to quantify.
The error induced in an electronic device might be a simple as a color changing from FFFFFF to FFFEFF (which your eye could not notice) or it might change something where that bit makes a machine instead of moving 0.010mm it thinks the move should be 10.01mm.
When there is excess radiation near an electronic circuit (which is more susceptible than some other things), the radiation can enter the circuit and create voltage levels that make the circuit do unpredictable things. That is the annoying side of the problem. If there is enough radiation that causes the circuit to become unstable then damage might occur. Then the next level is when the radiation is even higher and the circuit is damaged directly by the induced current. Then there is the case of more severe radiation, such as an EMP (electro-magnetic pulse), which generates enough radiation that motors and transformers might see excessive current and become damaged.
Dear All,
I know this is partially off the original topic. But the possibility that certain workshop equipment may affect or even damage everyday equipment, viz a flat screen TV etc., seems very important. So I hope you will understand my request, as I have no knowledge of such matters. Thus may I have some detailed advice.
I am not into Tungsten Inert Gas (TIG) welding, (as mentioned, it’s technically called Gas Tungsten Arc Welding, GTAW - thank you for the info.) I only undertake a very limited amount of Metal Inert Gas (MIG) and Gas, plus I did do some ‘old style’ Arc welding some years ago.
So, presumably as it says (TIG) has a non eroding electrode. (Plus an inert consumable rod.) Then the TIG Arc causes/releases a large amount of unrefined/uncontolled Radio Frequency (RF) signals. This then swamps and damages any electronics in the vicinity. Am I correct? A simple Y or N will be more than OK, thankyou.
The power of the TIG arc (welder) and the distance to the piece of electronic equipment, increases or decreases the risk of damage. Again correct? (Presumably the inverse square law applies. So the manufacturer could(?) give guidance about the risks?)
Does that mean MIG is not so bad, as it has a sacrificial electrode? Again, I have no idea. Anyone know?
Plus - Thanks for the info on the solar storms. Very interesting. (Everyday is a day at school, even when you have seen a lot of Summers.)
Thanks in anticipation,
David Williams (From across the Pond. Nr Oxford.)
On 9 Dec 2024, at 20:59, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:
Welders & flat screen TV's too . I had a bud that spent many
thousand $$ on a Lincoln water cooled TIG welder . First time he
used it took out his fairly new flatscreen TV . Good thing he was
between wife's when that happened .
animal
On 12/9/24 11:24 AM, Bruce J via
groups.io wrote:
Well it’s not just welders and LED lights…
" SOLAR STORMS ARE DRIVING FARMERS CRAZY: Planting
season is a hectic time for farmers. For many, it means
working through the night using GPS-guided tractors to plant
thousands of acres in a short period of time. The season was
in full swing on May 10, 2024, when the biggest solar storm in
decades struck Earth.
"Our
tractors acted like they were demon possessed," says Elaine
Ramstad, a Spaceweather.com reader and aurora chaser who helps
out on a family farm in Northern Minnesota. "All my cousins
called me during the May 10th storm to tell me that 'my
auroras' were driving them crazy while they were planting.”
Probably not Johannes’ problem, though…:-)
My shop is lit by LED bulbs or fixtures I got at Costco 4
or 5 years back to replace the old flickering fluorescent
ones; but I haven’t noticed any issues in use with my
calipers until the batteries get low, which produces just
those kinds of weird issues.
When I GTAW the HF start really messes with all of my
DRO's, and digital calipers/micrometers. 😮 It turns
them on, turns them off, the displays show erroneous
readings. I thought they were possessed until I figured
out it was the TIG's HF start that was causing the
problem. 😂
--
Bruce Johnson
The less a man knows about how sausages and laws are
made, the easier it is to steal his vote and give him
botulism.
--
Buffalo John
|
Well said Buffalo John!
As stated, GTAW is no different than any other arc producing operation. However, there is a feature that makes it standout from others - HF start.
There are three methods to starting a TIG weld: scratch, lift, and HF.
Scratch - like old-time stick welding the tungsten is scratched on the work piece starting the arc.
Lift - the tungsten is touched to the work piece, there is a surge in amperage starting the arc.
HF (high frequency) - a brief (I have my machine set to 1 second) current is passed to the tungsten at a high frequency which initiates the arc. This high frequency I believe is in the 180 - 250 khz range. The tungsten does not come in contact with the work piece avoiding any contamination. This burst of HF is what was messing with my shop. Outside of the cross-spectrum interference that arc welding generates this little burst in RF makes the welder a little transmitter for a second.
Stick and MIG have no effect on my electronics, and since I have moved the TIG operation to the other side of the shop all is well. Yes, the inverse square law applies. 😁
Jeff
|
John & Jeff , thanks for the extra explanation . I
unfortunately never learned to TIG ( that was left for the teach
& his stars back in the 70's ) & odds are pretty darn good
that at this stage i probably won't , but I now have a better
understanding of how this works .
thanks again
animal
On 12/10/24 5:50 AM, flyfishingdude9
via groups.io wrote:
переключити цитоване повідомлення
Показати цитований текст
Well said Buffalo John!
As stated, GTAW is no different than any other arc producing
operation. However, there is a feature that makes it standout
from others - HF start.
There are three methods to starting a TIG weld: scratch,
lift, and HF.
Scratch - like old-time stick welding the tungsten is
scratched on the work piece starting the arc.
Lift - the tungsten is touched to the work piece, there is a
surge in amperage starting the arc.
HF (high frequency) - a brief (I have my machine set to 1
second) current is passed to the tungsten at a high frequency
which initiates the arc. This high frequency I believe is in
the 180 - 250 khz range. The tungsten does not come in contact
with the work piece avoiding any contamination. This burst of
HF is what was messing with my shop. Outside of the
cross-spectrum interference that arc welding generates this
little burst in RF makes the welder a little transmitter for a
second.
Stick and MIG have no effect on my electronics, and since I
have moved the TIG operation to the other side of the shop all
is well. Yes, the inverse
square law applies. 😁
Jeff
|
Dear Jeff,
Thank you again for another XLNT and very detailed description.
David Williams Nr. Oxford UK
On 10 Dec 2024, at 19:49, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:
John & Jeff , thanks for the extra explanation . I
unfortunately never learned to TIG ( that was left for the teach
& his stars back in the 70's ) & odds are pretty darn good
that at this stage i probably won't , but I now have a better
understanding of how this works .
thanks again
animal
On 12/10/24 5:50 AM, flyfishingdude9
via groups.io wrote:
Well said Buffalo John!
As stated, GTAW is no different than any other arc producing
operation. However, there is a feature that makes it standout
from others - HF start.
There are three methods to starting a TIG weld: scratch,
lift, and HF.
Scratch - like old-time stick welding the tungsten is
scratched on the work piece starting the arc.
Lift - the tungsten is touched to the work piece, there is a
surge in amperage starting the arc.
HF (high frequency) - a brief (I have my machine set to 1
second) current is passed to the tungsten at a high frequency
which initiates the arc. This high frequency I believe is in
the 180 - 250 khz range. The tungsten does not come in contact
with the work piece avoiding any contamination. This burst of
HF is what was messing with my shop. Outside of the
cross-spectrum interference that arc welding generates this
little burst in RF makes the welder a little transmitter for a
second.
Stick and MIG have no effect on my electronics, and since I
have moved the TIG operation to the other side of the shop all
is well. Yes, the inverse
square law applies. 😁
Jeff
|
I started this subject about digital calipers and external noice that kill the numbers. Many interesting input. I tested my Digitals closed to my strong ceiling LED lamp, no ugly reaction. However, I replaced it to old type Edison 100 w lamp to be safe. Tested in 2 days now, no more problems than normal.
On 10 Dec 2024, at 17:27, DAVID WILLIAMS via groups.io <d.i.williams@...> wrote:
Dear Jeff,
Thank you again for another XLNT and very detailed description.
David Williams Nr. Oxford UK On 10 Dec 2024, at 19:49, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:
John & Jeff , thanks for the extra explanation . I
unfortunately never learned to TIG ( that was left for the teach
& his stars back in the 70's ) & odds are pretty darn good
that at this stage i probably won't , but I now have a better
understanding of how this works .
thanks again
animal
On 12/10/24 5:50 AM, flyfishingdude9
via groups.io wrote:
Well said Buffalo John!
As stated, GTAW is no different than any other arc producing
operation. However, there is a feature that makes it standout
from others - HF start.
There are three methods to starting a TIG weld: scratch,
lift, and HF.
Scratch - like old-time stick welding the tungsten is
scratched on the work piece starting the arc.
Lift - the tungsten is touched to the work piece, there is a
surge in amperage starting the arc.
HF (high frequency) - a brief (I have my machine set to 1
second) current is passed to the tungsten at a high frequency
which initiates the arc. This high frequency I believe is in
the 180 - 250 khz range. The tungsten does not come in contact
with the work piece avoiding any contamination. This burst of
HF is what was messing with my shop. Outside of the
cross-spectrum interference that arc welding generates this
little burst in RF makes the welder a little transmitter for a
second.
Stick and MIG have no effect on my electronics, and since I
have moved the TIG operation to the other side of the shop all
is well. Yes, the inverse
square law applies. 😁
Jeff
|
yea sometimes these off topic derailments actually grow
some teeth . WHen yer through learning yer through .
animal
On 12/10/24 5:11 PM, Johannes wrote:
переключити цитоване повідомлення
Показати цитований текст
I started this subject about digital calipers and external noice
that kill the numbers. Many interesting input. I tested my
Digitals closed to my strong ceiling LED lamp, no ugly reaction.
However, I replaced it to old type Edison 100 w lamp to be safe.
Tested in 2 days now, no more problems than normal.
Dear Jeff,
Thank you again for another XLNT and very detailed
description.
David Williams Nr. Oxford UK
John & Jeff , thanks for the extra
explanation . I unfortunately never learned to TIG
( that was left for the teach & his stars back
in the 70's ) & odds are pretty darn good that
at this stage i probably won't , but I now have a
better understanding of how this works .
thanks again
animal
On 12/10/24 5:50 AM,
flyfishingdude9 via groups.io wrote:
Well said Buffalo John!
As stated, GTAW is no different than any
other arc producing operation. However, there
is a feature that makes it standout from others
- HF start.
There are three methods to starting a TIG
weld: scratch, lift, and HF.
Scratch - like old-time stick welding the
tungsten is scratched on the work piece starting
the arc.
Lift - the tungsten is touched to the work
piece, there is a surge in amperage starting the
arc.
HF (high frequency) - a brief (I have my
machine set to 1 second) current is passed to
the tungsten at a high frequency which initiates
the arc. This high frequency I believe is in
the 180 - 250 khz range. The tungsten does not
come in contact with the work piece avoiding any
contamination. This burst of HF is what was
messing with my shop. Outside of the
cross-spectrum interference that arc welding
generates this little burst in RF makes the
welder a little transmitter for a second.
Stick and MIG have no effect on my
electronics, and since I have moved the TIG
operation to the other side of the shop all is
well. Yes, the inverse
square law applies. 😁
Jeff
|
In in shop was a machinist did haveva fling Damage to electronic devices as raised about Electronic Vernier Calipers and 6 hours of more work and tilling the Forman his high quality Habor Freight Electronic Vernier Caliper did not work after flying ✈
I am the Forman said that's OK or maybe if you bring a Habor Freight Electronic Vernier Caliper junk again it is your $^%%%^ .
Dave
|
BuffaloJohn
Johannes
davesmith1800