Re: Help finding entire protocol
Hello Ann,
I use skyr as a substitute for cottage cheese and quark. Skyr is a low-fat cultured dairy product with a high protein content. I have been using it for several years together with liquid flaxseed oil and have also added a spoonful of ground flaxseed.
I am attaching a website where you can look for suppliers: https://www.icelandicprovisions.com/.
Happy New Year,
Jens
[Edited Message Follows]
Hi Ann
Congratulations on your success!
To answer your questions;
Yes, the protocol could help your friend to gain healthy weight.
Our members in the U.S. substitute Quark with cottage cheese. You could make your own quark, instructions are in the files section here. You will also find sauerkraut recipes in the same folder.
Dr. Budwig didn't specify fat content but it is widely believed that we should be using low fat quark/cc. Here in the UK, Quark is easily found in supermarkets and is always 0% fat and contains around 12% protein. If you have to use cottage cheese, try to find one with as close to 12g of protein per 100g.
The ratio of flaxseed oil to quark/cc is approximately 1:2. I say approximately as Dr. Budwig’s recommendation for one portion of her “cream” was 3 tablespoons of oil, 2 tablespoons of milk and 100 - 125g of quark (around 6 tablespoons).
I hope this helps. I'll also post another link to Sandra’s daily plan, for your reference.
Good luck.
Julie
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Re: Help finding entire protocol
Thanks for sharing information. Please let me know how to connect as I have questions on some recipes and also finding stuff.
On Dec 17, 2024, at 6:22 AM, sundarthevedic via groups.io <sundarthevedic@...> wrote:
Brother anything you need, tell me I will help for best quality finding. I can also arrange for you to us from Bharat.
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Re: Help finding entire protocol
Julie answered most of your questions. As far a sauerkraut I used this recipe. It is made in 1 quart mason jars so it ferments quickly, about 4 - 5 days. I found that 2 quarts of kraut will make about 8 days of juice @ 1/2 cup per serving.
https://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2015/02/how-to-make-sauerkraut.html
I used Daisy 2% cottage cheese for the most part. I played with organic for a while but the cost was pretty high and I didn't see any difference in results so went back to Daisy non-organic.
All the best, Rod in MN/USA
On Sunday, December 29, 2024 at 02:15:42 AM CST, Ann Rothstein via groups.io <frannce05@...> wrote:
Hello All, it's been years since I've engaged in this group. I did the Budwig protocol as one of many treatments. Stage 4 melanoma I'm still here 12 years later. I would like to help a friend who recently said she's down to 100 pounds and doesn't know what to eat. Her cancer has left a hole in the upper palate. The Budwig protocol came to mind immediately. I appreciate the cookbook link., thank you for that. I have some basic questions about he protocol as its been awhile. In addition to its health benefits can this help someone put on healthy weight? How do we substitute for Quark in the US ? When I did the program I narrowed it down to Kalona brand full fat cottage cheese. In reading I am a bit confused by the "low-fat vs full fat vs we can't even get anything close to the right product, question" please enlighten me people. If anyone knows, what was the actual fat and protein content of the quark that J. Budwig used before all the interpretations happened? What is the ratio of protein to flax oil? Is there a particular recipe for making saurekraut ( i have a proper crock,) as kraut is often on there salty side. If all of this is already spelled out somewhere please direct me there. There is so much material. Thank You, Aloha, Ann
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15 Key Points of Dr. Budwig’s Healing Plan - Plz read and save
Hello New Members,
The information below is posted regularly and is based on Dr. Budwig's books - The Oil-Protein Cookbook[1952] and Cancer-the Problem and the Solution[1999] and is on my website at https://budwig-videos.com On the site, click on FUNDAMENTALS at the top of the front page to read more details about the Budwig plan; also, view the video at the bottom of the front page to see the oil/protein muesli recipe being made and please read member testimonials. Join the site for a month or more of online Budwig recipes on video or with photos.
Unfortunately, 99% of websites & books, other than Dr. Budwig's books, have incorrect information about her plan. Authors & websites offering "Budwig information" that includes supplements are giving advice that could interfere with healing. Dr. Budwig did not include supplements & wrote about avoiding most, but not all, of them. It's also important to follow the FULL Budwig plan below, instead of only flax oil/cottage cheese[FO/CC].
Below are Guidelines, in brief, for the Budwig Diet & Lifestyle Plan - you don't have to eat all the foods on this list each day. ADJUST THE AMOUNTS TO FIT YOUR SIZE & DIGESTIVE ABILITY. Each food or liquid below has an important purpose. They all fight cancer, heart disease, arthritis & more. There's a good reason for following the schedule as stated below, but if necessary, adjust it to your needs.
The Budwig plan may take 3 months or more before significant improvement occurs. It's also possible to feel worse during the 2nd month; as cancer cells begin to die, some may go into the bloodstream. The plan needs to be continued even after becoming cancer-free or the cancer could return. Eating forbidden foods & experiencing severe stress can promote cancer.
Dr. Budwig's Program:
1. 1st thing in AM--Sauerkraut Juice, raw and homemade. Raw unheated kraut contains natural enzymes, probiotics and vitamins - all help the digestive system metabolize foods and improve immunity. Almost all sauerkraut in stores has been pasteurized [heated] and won't be as powerful as raw kraut.
2. Just before breakfast-- green or herbal tea with one teaspoon of raw honey, a cancer-fighter.
3. Breakfast--Blend 3 Tbs Flax Oil [45ml] & 6 Tbs Quark or Cottage Cheese [90ml]+3 Tbs [45ml] milk for thinning. Grind & add 2 Tbs [30ml] whole flaxseeds, fresh fruit, pure fruit juice, raw nuts, 1 tsp [5ml]raw honey. This recipe has helped heal hundreds of cancer patients & is slightly different than Dr. Budwig's quark recipe which starts with blending FO, milk & raw honey, then adds quark. She placed the ground flax seeds in a bowl, then layered fruit & FO/CC on top. Afterward, if hungry, eat 1 slice of whole-grain bread, raw veggies, quality cheese -1 oz Edam, Gouda, Emmentaler, Camembert. Watch a video of FO/CC being made at http://budwig-videos.com/ [Bottom of page.]
4. Mid-morning -Homemade Vegetable Juice (carrot juice, beets w/apple, celery). Very Important.
5. Before Lunch - Champagne or sparkling wine w/ 1Tbs[15ml] whole flaxseeds, freshly ground, OR ground seeds in a small glass of fruit juice. Champagne helps the absorption of ground seeds, allowing nutrients into the brain.
6. SUNBATHING [weather permitting] outside 10 to 20 minutes around noon without sun lotion or glasses, expose as much skin as possible to get vitamin D & healing energy of the sun. Afterward, avoid washing with soap. Give vitamin D several hours to be made on the skin & absorbed. Sunlight through glass does not make vitamin D.
7. Lunch - A raw vegetable salad + Budwig FO dressing. If still hungry, eat foods from the DINNER menu below.
8. Lunch Dessert - an important 2nd serving of 3 Tbs.[45ml] FO & 6 Tbs.[90ml] Quark or Cottage Cheese + 3 Tbs[45ml] milk, well blended. Add raw fruit, pure fruit juice, raw nuts, 1 tsp [5ml] raw honey and/or other flavors [JB suggested non-sugar dark cocoa, shredded coconut]
9. Mid-afternoon - 1 Tbs. [15ml]whole flaxseeds, freshly ground, in 2 to 8 oz of pure fruit juice, homemade or store-bought. Flaxseeds are strong cancer fighters and are high in fiber for good digestion & elimination. 10. STRESS REDUCTION--Meditate by focusing on the breath to calm the mind, the goal is to free the mind of thoughts; or use EFT [Emotional Freedom Technique shown on youtube] to change thinking, & use other ways to reduce stress - music, nature walks.
11. Late afternoon - Papaya or pineapple juice, 2 to 8 oz, with 1 Tbs [15ml]whole flaxseeds, freshly ground.
12. Dinner - Cooked grains & nutritional yeast flakes w/B12 OR grains & beans plus vegetables w/oleolux, nutritional yeast flakes w/B12 & spices. Grains & beans combined make a complete protein. Vegetables such as spinach, asparagus, broccoli, & cabbage as well as onions & garlic are major cancer fighters. Suggested grains: brown rice, buckwheat, millet, oats, quinoa. Grains & potatoes[white or yams] are calming & help w/sleep. If beans bother you, start with small amounts, a tablespoon or less, and slowly increase the serving.
13. Evening - 1 glass of Red Wine [optional]. Go to sleep early - by 10 pm if possible.
14. Dr. Budwig said to AVOID cancer promoters such as chemicals, preservatives, damaging fats, meats/poultry/eggs/fish, sugar, sugar substitutes [other than raw honey], highly processed foods, MOST SUPPLEMENTS, ozone treatments, dental infections and wean off drugs if possible [under a doctor's care].
15. Most people do not need ELDI oils, which Dr. Budwig created mainly for patients who are too weak to eat. These oils are sold in Germany. They are rubbed on the skin or used for an enema. [Some people make a version of ELDI oil at home by mixing 75% flax oil with 25% wheat germ oil to help preserve it. ]
Please feel free to ask any questions you may have. FlaxSeedOil2 forum is available at groups.io where we moved well before Yahoo Groups shut down. https://groups.io/g/FlaxSeedOil2/
Also, I invite you to join my Facebook page where I post new research daily on foods and health.
Kind regards, Sandra Olson, M.Ed., FlaxSeedOil2 Owner since 2007
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Re: Help finding entire protocol
Hi Ann
Congratulations on your success!
To answer your questions;
Yes, the protocol could help your friend to gain healthy weight.
Our members in the U.S. substitute Quark with cottage cheese. You could make your own quark, instructions are in the files section here. You will also find sauerkraut recipes in the same folder.
Dr. Budwig didn't specify fat content but it is widely believed that we should be using low fat quark/cc. Here in the UK, Quark is easily found in supermarkets and is always 0% fat and contains around 12% protein. If you have to use cottage cheese, try to find one with as close to 12g of protein per 100g.
The ratio of flaxseed oil to quark/cc is approximately 1:2. I say approximately as Dr. Budwig’s recommendation for one portion of her “cream” was 3 tablespoons of oil, 2 tablespoons of milk and 100 - 125g of quark (around 6 tablespoons).
I hope this helps. I'll also post another link to Sandra’s daily plan, for your reference.
Good luck.
Julie
|
Re: Help finding entire protocol
Hello All, it's been years since I've engaged in this group. I did the Budwig protocol as one of many treatments. Stage 4 melanoma I'm still here 12 years later.
I would like to help a friend who recently said she's down to 100 pounds and doesn't know what to eat. Her cancer has left a hole in the upper palate.
The Budwig protocol came to mind immediately. I appreciate the cookbook link., thank you for that. I have some basic questions about he protocol as its been awhile. In addition to its health benefits can this help someone put on healthy weight? How do we substitute for Quark in the US ? When I did the program I narrowed it down to Kalona brand full fat cottage cheese. In reading I am a bit confused by the "low-fat vs full fat vs we can't even get anything close to the right product, question" please enlighten me people. If anyone knows, what was the actual fat and protein content of the quark that J. Budwig used before all the interpretations happened? What is the ratio of protein to flax oil? Is there a particular recipe for making saurekraut ( i have a proper crock,) as kraut is often on there salty side.
If all of this is already spelled out somewhere please direct me there. There is so much material. Thank You, Aloha, Ann
|
Re: Help finding entire protocol
Thank you for posting that. It should be helpful to all members.
Rod in MN/USA
On Wednesday, December 18, 2024 at 03:26:32 AM CST, sundarthevedic via groups.io <sundarthevedic@...> wrote:
Here is the link of book, I am from Surat, India. I want to help you and other patients (Moderator’s note: Thanks for the reminder of this free download. Best wishes, Julie)
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A2 or Desi cow milk can be used (your local region cow, must be native cow)
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Re: Help finding entire protocol
Here is the link of book, I am from Surat, India. I want to help you and other patients
(Moderator’s note: Thanks for the reminder of this free download. Best wishes, Julie)
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Re: Help finding entire protocol
Brother anything you need, tell me I will help for best quality finding. I can also arrange for you to us from Bharat.
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Re: Help finding entire protocol
Hi
Yes, the instructions for juicing, and how to mix the flaxseed oil and dairy are included in the links.
Best wishes
Julie, UK
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Re: Help finding entire protocol
Thank you. Should I refer the link provided for how to make these juices/food. Just want to ensure that am not doing anything wrong in protocol. Appreciate if any one can from US can message me so I can find out where to buy some of the mentioned foods.
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Re: Help finding entire protocol
Hi
Click this link to find the comprehensive daily plan, written by Sandra, the owner of this group;
For liver, pancreas or gall bladder issues, it is advised to begin with the transition diet:
I hope this helps.
Best wishes
Julie, UK
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Help finding entire protocol
Hi all,
Have been following group for quite sometime but not able to locate where to find Budwig protocol and preparation. Please help me how to prepare and especially what additional things to add for colon case.
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Re: 15 Key Points of Dr. Budwig's Protocol - Plz read & Save
Hi Julie,
thank you for your response! Yes that could be true. Ozone is a strong treatment!
Best,
On Tuesday, November 26, 2024, 11:56 PM, jfanciullacci via groups.io <jfanciullacci@...> wrote: Hi Ninni
I've scrolled through previous messages on the subject of ozone treatments.
I found this, written by Sandra:
"Dr. Budwig wrote that she believed that it's best to avoid oxygen ozone because she believed that trying to force oxygen into the cells before they can absorb the oxygen properly is dangerous. She wrote that only her diet can correct the cells inability to "breathe."
I hope this helps.
Best wishes
Julie
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Re: 15 Key Points of Dr. Budwig's Protocol - Plz read & Save
Hi Sara
I too, have read that Dr. Budwig’s reason for sunbathing is that the high level of electron-rich oils in her diet, attract the photons from light/sunlight.
The boost to Vitamin D levels are an added bonus.
I can’t answer your question regarding Sandra’s views on this, but as she is out of action at the moment, I will give you my take on her words.
She doesn’t state that Vitamin D is the reason that sunbathing is so important but as research shows that a Vitamin D deficiency is very common in cancer patients and in other diseases, maybe this is why she includes the mention of Vitamin D in her daily plan.
Best wishes
Julie, moderator
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Re: 15 Key Points of Dr. Budwig's Protocol - Plz read & Save
Hi Ninni
I've scrolled through previous messages on the subject of ozone treatments.
I found this, written by Sandra:
"Dr. Budwig wrote that she believed that it's best to avoid oxygen ozone because she believed that trying to force oxygen into the cells before they can absorb the oxygen properly is dangerous. She wrote that only her diet can correct the cells inability to "breathe."
I hope this helps.
Best wishes
Julie
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Re: 15 Key Points of Dr. Budwig's Protocol - Plz read & Save
Budwig-Videos.com I can’t recommend enough that everyone should become a member of the above website. Sandra read through all of dr budwigs instructions and condensed it down to a let’s get started and do this as quickly as possible way of living. It’s all there! Beckie Moon 315-552-8059 Joe Moon 315-415-4180
Thanks for posting. Can you please explain or cite the source for vitamin D being the reason Budwig included sunbathing in her protocol? The translated books of Johanna Budwig and Om Vern that I’ve read make no mention of Vitamin. d. They speak of the importance of getting sun for the purpose of it activating the electrons in the FOCC after it’s been eaten. And so I’m wondering where you are getting your information from.
Thanks, Sara Hi all
In response to Todd’s message, here is the post written by Sandra:
Below are Guidelines in brief of the Budwig Diet – you don’t have to consume all the foods on this list. Membership to our site, Budwig-Videos.com gives you videos or articles in detail about each item below. This information is from Dr. Budwig’s books.
1. 1st thing in AM–Sauerkraut Juice, preferably raw & homemade [We have a video on our site showing how to make it] . Raw unheated kraut has enzymes, probiotics and vitamins which help the digestive system metabolize foods & improve immunity. Most sauerkraut sold in stores is pasteurized [heated] and nutrients are damaged. It won’t help as much.
2. Just before breakfast– green or herbal tea
3. Breakfast–3 Tbs. Flax Oil & 6 Tbs. Quark or Cottage Cheese+ 3 Tbs. milk if needed for thinning, well blended, after blending, add 2 Tbsp flax seeds, freshly ground, add fresh fruit, fruit juice, raw nuts, 1 tsp raw honey. Afterward, if hungry, choose whole grain bread, raw vegetables, & an oz of quality cheese: Edam, Gouda, Emmentaler, Sbrinz or Camembert.
4. Mid-morning – Homemade Vegetable Juice (carrots, beets w/lemon or apple) . Homemade carrot or beet juices are very important cancer-fighters.
5. Before Lunch – Champagne or sparkling wine with 1 Tbs of flaxseeds[freshly ground] OR ground flax seeds in small glass of fruit juice. The champagne helps with absorption of the seeds.
6. SUNBATHING outside 10 to 20 minutes around noon [weather permitting] without sun lotion or glasses, expose as much skin as possible. Avoid washing with soap after sunbathing. Give the vitamin D time to be made and absorbed[24-48 hours]
7. Lunch – raw vegetable salad with a variety of raw greens and vegetables + Budwig dressing using 1tbs flaxseed oil, 2tbs fruit juice, 1tsp mustard. If still hungry, boiled or steamed veggies, grains and beans, lentils, or potatoes. [If a member of this site, see “DINNER” in the Menu for over 25 recipes]
8. Lunch Dessert – It’s important to have a 2nd serving of 3 Tbs. Flax Oil & 6 Tbs. Quark or Cottage Cheese with a little milk, well blended. Add raw fruit, fruit juice, raw nuts, raw honey and/or other flavors you like. You can also use non-sweetened cocoa for a dark chocolate flavor. Dark chocolate fights cancer if used in small amounts. It cannot contain sugar.
9. Mid-afternoon – 1 Tbs. whole flaxseeds, freshly ground & added to 3 to 8 oz of pure fruit juice, homemade or store bought.
10. STRESS REDUCTION/RELAXATION PRACTICE — Meditation to relax the mind, EFT to change thinking, & other techniques that reduce stress as shown on the Budwig-Videos website for those who join. [EFT is Emotional Freedom Technique]. Chronic stress can be very damaging. [We have a video for relaxation methods for members of this site.]
11. Late afternoon – Papaya or pineapple juice, 3 to 8 oz, with 1 Tbs. whole flaxseeds, freshly ground.
12. Dinner – Cooked grains and nutritional yeast flakes such as Red Mill Nutritional Yeast with B12 or grains with vegetables w/oleolux, nutritional yeast flakes & spices. Vegetables such as spinach, asparagus, broccoli, & cabbage add cancer-fighting nutrition. Grains suggested by Dr. Budwig: brown rice, buckwheat, millet and oats. Dine early.
13. Evening – 1 glass Red Wine [optional]. Go to sleep early – before 10pm if possible.
14. AVOID chemicals, preservatives, damaging fats, meats/poultry/eggs/fish, sugar, sugar substitutes, highly processed foods, most supplements, ozone treatments, dental infections and wean off drugs if possible [under doctor’s care]
15. Most people do not need ELDI oils, which Dr. Budwig created mainly for patients who are too weak to eat. These oils are sold in Germany. They are rubbed on the skin or used as an enema if needed. [Some people make a version of ELDI oil at home by mixing 75% flax oil with 25% wheat germ oil to help preserve it. ]
Posted by Sandra Olson, M.Ed.
Owner of this group since 2007
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Re: making quark from goat milk
Praying for Sandra’s healing. I was just looking over my Budwig recipes for C our thanksgiving dinner and saw this pop up. Thanks for sharing, she will be in our thoughts. So thankful for Sandra! Beckie Moon 315-552-8059 Joe Moon 315-415-4180
Thank you for letting us know Julie. Sending Sandra all the healing vibes for a speedy recovery! Yours in good health, Andrea
On Friday, November 22, 2024 at 07:33:55 a.m. MST, Joost < joost@...> wrote:
Wish her all the best. Thanks, Joost Op 22-11-2024 om 13:48 schreef jfanciullacci via groups.io: > Hi Todd, and all group members, > During July, Sandra fell and broke her right arm and shoulder as well > as weakening her right leg. > Since then, she has been focused on working with physical therapists > to learn to type (her hands and fingers shake), to stand (her right > leg is still very weak after all these months), and to walk a few > steps with a walker. This change has been overwhelming. Basically, she > is confined to bed and rest. > Luckily, her daughter lives with her and helps her every day. > She also has a second helper when her daughter is away from home. > Plus, her son visits every weekend. She thinks all of you daily and > wishes you the best. > Best wishes to all. > Julie, moderator >
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Re: 15 Key Points of Dr. Budwig's Protocol - Plz read & Save
Thank you for this! I’m wondering why ozone treatments are not recommended? I have had them now and then and I found them very helpful.
Best wishes,
On Friday, November 22, 2024, 3:08 PM, jfanciullacci via groups.io <jfanciullacci@...> wrote: Hi all
In response to Todd’s message, here is the post written by Sandra:
Below are Guidelines in brief of the Budwig Diet – you don’t have to consume all the foods on this list. Membership to our site, Budwig-Videos.com gives you videos or articles in detail about each item below. This information is from Dr. Budwig’s books.
1. 1st thing in AM–Sauerkraut Juice, preferably raw & homemade [We have a video on our site showing how to make it] . Raw unheated kraut has enzymes, probiotics and vitamins which help the digestive system metabolize foods & improve immunity. Most sauerkraut sold in stores is pasteurized [heated] and nutrients are damaged. It won’t help as much.
2. Just before breakfast– green or herbal tea
3. Breakfast–3 Tbs. Flax Oil & 6 Tbs. Quark or Cottage Cheese+ 3 Tbs. milk if needed for thinning, well blended, after blending, add 2 Tbsp flax seeds, freshly ground, add fresh fruit, fruit juice, raw nuts, 1 tsp raw honey. Afterward, if hungry, choose whole grain bread, raw vegetables, & an oz of quality cheese: Edam, Gouda, Emmentaler, Sbrinz or Camembert.
4. Mid-morning – Homemade Vegetable Juice (carrots, beets w/lemon or apple) . Homemade carrot or beet juices are very important cancer-fighters.
5. Before Lunch – Champagne or sparkling wine with 1 Tbs of flaxseeds[freshly ground] OR ground flax seeds in small glass of fruit juice. The champagne helps with absorption of the seeds.
6. SUNBATHING outside 10 to 20 minutes around noon [weather permitting] without sun lotion or glasses, expose as much skin as possible. Avoid washing with soap after sunbathing. Give the vitamin D time to be made and absorbed[24-48 hours]
7. Lunch – raw vegetable salad with a variety of raw greens and vegetables + Budwig dressing using 1tbs flaxseed oil, 2tbs fruit juice, 1tsp mustard. If still hungry, boiled or steamed veggies, grains and beans, lentils, or potatoes. [If a member of this site, see “DINNER” in the Menu for over 25 recipes]
8. Lunch Dessert – It’s important to have a 2nd serving of 3 Tbs. Flax Oil & 6 Tbs. Quark or Cottage Cheese with a little milk, well blended. Add raw fruit, fruit juice, raw nuts, raw honey and/or other flavors you like. You can also use non-sweetened cocoa for a dark chocolate flavor. Dark chocolate fights cancer if used in small amounts. It cannot contain sugar.
9. Mid-afternoon – 1 Tbs. whole flaxseeds, freshly ground & added to 3 to 8 oz of pure fruit juice, homemade or store bought.
10. STRESS REDUCTION/RELAXATION PRACTICE — Meditation to relax the mind, EFT to change thinking, & other techniques that reduce stress as shown on the Budwig-Videos website for those who join. [EFT is Emotional Freedom Technique]. Chronic stress can be very damaging. [We have a video for relaxation methods for members of this site.]
11. Late afternoon – Papaya or pineapple juice, 3 to 8 oz, with 1 Tbs. whole flaxseeds, freshly ground.
12. Dinner – Cooked grains and nutritional yeast flakes such as Red Mill Nutritional Yeast with B12 or grains with vegetables w/oleolux, nutritional yeast flakes & spices. Vegetables such as spinach, asparagus, broccoli, & cabbage add cancer-fighting nutrition. Grains suggested by Dr. Budwig: brown rice, buckwheat, millet and oats. Dine early.
13. Evening – 1 glass Red Wine [optional]. Go to sleep early – before 10pm if possible.
14. AVOID chemicals, preservatives, damaging fats, meats/poultry/eggs/fish, sugar, sugar substitutes, highly processed foods, most supplements, ozone treatments, dental infections and wean off drugs if possible [under doctor’s care]
15. Most people do not need ELDI oils, which Dr. Budwig created mainly for patients who are too weak to eat. These oils are sold in Germany. They are rubbed on the skin or used as an enema if needed. [Some people make a version of ELDI oil at home by mixing 75% flax oil with 25% wheat germ oil to help preserve it. ]
Posted by Sandra Olson, M.Ed.
Owner of this group since 2007
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Beckie