Re: Autotransformer deep questions!

 

1: I know, but .meas at ½ cycle let me read the voltages easily.

2: I’ll try that; good suggestion!

 

From: LTspice@groups.io <LTspice@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jerry Lee Marcel via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 2:04 PM
To: LTspice@groups.io
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [LTspice] Autotransformer deep questions!

 

Two things I notice instantly:

Primary voltage should be 311V. Voltages in SPICE are peak.

You don't run a 50Hz transient for only 10ms.

Le 26/12/2024 à 21:40, Bell, Dave via groups.io a écrit :

Please see my recent upload, Autotransformer.zip

 

I need some tutorials regarding autotransformer modelling!

I was intrigued by Hassan's AC Stabilizer and tried to model TR1

The model differed from my expectations in several ways.

1: Why do the tap-to-tap voltages differ, with equal inductances?

2: Why is the separate 18V winding so different?

2a: Why is it more different when I separate the Kxxx directives?

3: Why do the outputs throw infinities with small or megohm loads, but not when 1G or open??

 

Dave


Re: Autotransformer deep questions!

 


Le 26/12/2024 à 21:40, Bell, Dave via groups.io a écrit :

The model differed from my expectations in several ways.

1: Why do the tap-to-tap voltages differ, with equal inductances?

Inductance is proportional to N², but voltage is proportional to N.
You must redo your inductance calculation.


Re: Autotransformer deep questions!

 

Two things I notice instantly:

Primary voltage should be 311V. Voltages in SPICE are peak.

You don't run a 50Hz transient for only 10ms.

Le 26/12/2024 à 21:40, Bell, Dave via groups.io a écrit :

Please see my recent upload, Autotransformer.zip

 

I need some tutorials regarding autotransformer modelling!

I was intrigued by Hassan's AC Stabilizer and tried to model TR1

The model differed from my expectations in several ways.

1: Why do the tap-to-tap voltages differ, with equal inductances?

2: Why is the separate 18V winding so different?

2a: Why is it more different when I separate the Kxxx directives?

3: Why do the outputs throw infinities with small or megohm loads, but not when 1G or open??

 

Dave


Re: File /Temp/Autotransformer.zip

 

Late night modelling certainly didn’t help!

OK, replaced SQRT() with x**2

  Tap-to-tap differences and voltages are slightly better.

  18VAC winding is a bit worse, though.

  Still blows up with moderate loads.

 

I don’t yet grok the directions of current flows; will simplify to one tapped winding and one separate.

 

Thanks!

Dave

 

From: LTspice@groups.io <LTspice@groups.io> On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2024 12:59 PM
To: LTspice@groups.io
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [LTspice] File /Temp/Autotransformer.zip uploaded #file-notice

 

Inductance is proportional to turns squared, not square root. Start with a simpler winding with one tap, and look at the directions of current flow. In an autotransformer, the 'secondary' current opposes the 'primary' current.

On 2024-12-26 20:40, Group Notification wrote:

The following items have been added to the Files area of the LTspice@groups.io group.

By: Bell, Dave <Dave.Bell@...>

Description:
I need some tutorials regarding autotransformer modelling! I was intrigued by Hassan's AC Stabilizer and tried to model TR1 The model differed from my expectations in several ways. 1: Why do the tap-to-tap voltages differ? 2: Why is the separate 18V winding so different? 2a: Why is it more different when I separate the Kxxx directives? 3: Why do the outputs throw infinities with megohm loads, but not when open??

-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best Wishes
John Woodgate
Keep trying

 

Virus-free.www.avg.com


Autotransformer deep questions!

 

Inductance is proportional to turns squared, not square root. Start with a simpler winding with one tap, and look at the directions of current flow. In an autotransformer, the 'secondary' current opposes the 'primary' current.

On 2024-12-26 20:40, Group Notification wrote:

The following items have been added to the Files area of the LTspice@groups.io group.

By: Bell, Dave <Dave.Bell@...>

Description:
I need some tutorials regarding autotransformer modelling! I was intrigued by Hassan's AC Stabilizer and tried to model TR1 The model differed from my expectations in several ways. 1: Why do the tap-to-tap voltages differ? 2: Why is the separate 18V winding so different? 2a: Why is it more different when I separate the Kxxx directives? 3: Why do the outputs throw infinities with megohm loads, but not when open??

-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only
Best Wishes
John Woodgate
Keep trying

Virus-free.www.avg.com


Autotransformer deep questions!

 

Please see my recent upload, Autotransformer.zip

 

I need some tutorials regarding autotransformer modelling!

I was intrigued by Hassan's AC Stabilizer and tried to model TR1

The model differed from my expectations in several ways.

1: Why do the tap-to-tap voltages differ, with equal inductances?

2: Why is the separate 18V winding so different?

2a: Why is it more different when I separate the Kxxx directives?

3: Why do the outputs throw infinities with small or megohm loads, but not when 1G or open??

 

Dave


Re: Need Current Source with User selectable current and voltage compliance

 

LTspice has a few kinds of "ideal" models.  I used both kinds.
 
If you used any "real" diode (one with a part number), there's chances of a few factors that could affect results.
 
The ideal diode "D" follows the Shockley diode law, so it is actually pretty close to an actual silicon diode's behavior, but it lacks capacitance and bulk (ohmic) resistance.  That might be what affected your results.
 
Andy


Re: Need Current Source with User selectable current and voltage compliance

 

I didn't use the "ideal" diode so even the minuscule capacitance was causing issues. The LTspice ideal diode is very similar to the XSPICE simple diode code model.


Re: Need Current Source with User selectable current and voltage compliance

 

On Thu, Dec 26, 2024 at 08:08 AM, Tony Casey wrote:
Did you try enabling "This is an active load" in the current source properties?
I thought that did something different (shutting off the current source as the voltage approaches zero).  Is there a different explanation?  Can it throttle the current when the terminal voltage exceeds some preset value?
 
Andy
 


Re: Need Current Source with User selectable current and voltage compliance

 

On 26/12/2024 02:10, Tom via groups.io wrote:
Having issues making a current source with limited voltage compliance for an ideal charge pump in a PLL circuit. The methods of clamping the Source max Vc using a diode and voltage source or Zener diode create spikes which disrupt the loop. VCCS or 2 terminal G source would work. 
Did you try enabling "This is an active load" in the current source properties?

--
Regards,
Tony


Re: Looking for ideal fully differential amplifier spice model

 

On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 08:53 PM, Tom wrote:
Yes there are multiple types of "Fully-Differential Amplifiers". There is no set minimum requirements. For the case of feeding a differential ADC, a "true" Fully-Differential OpAmp is generally used.
I  would think that a non-Op-Amp would be needed in that case, perhaps a diff amp with a preset gain of 1 or 2.
 
What is meant by the word "true" in "'true' Fully-Differential OpAmp"?  Is there another kind that is not "true"?
 
Why swapping the outputs works for Fully-Differential amps made with E and G sources is unknown to me. The XSPICE code model also uses G sources and also works when outputs are swapped. The caveat being R1=R2=R3=R4.
Perhaps it is teetering on the brink of instability, and it only remains stable when the resistors are exactly matched?
 
Andy
 


Re: Need Current Source with User selectable current and voltage compliance

 
Змінено

I uploaded Voltage-Clamped-Current-Source.asc which has four five (three four, really) examples of adding a voltage clamp to an ideal current source.  It is not an algorithmic approach, but it does the job.
 
I don't know why you got spikes with your diode and voltage source method.  Did you use the ideal diode "D", or a real diode model?
 
Andy
 
 
 


Re: Looking for ideal fully differential amplifier spice model

 

Yes there are multiple types of "Fully-Differential Amplifiers". There is no set minimum requirements. For the case of feeding a differential ADC, a "true" Fully-Differential OpAmp is generally used.
 
The Delta-Sigma Converter uses the input amp as a differential-summing-integrator. The amp used by the original Author Holger was a XSPICE gain code model. I was having trouble getting my version created from the original netlist to work and changing the amp seemed to help. The "other" changes I made were probably the real reason I finally got the simulation to work.
 
Why swapping the outputs works for Fully-Differential amps made with E and G sources is unknown to me. The XSPICE code model also uses G sources and also works when outputs are swapped. The caveat being R1=R2=R3=R4.


Need Current Source with User selectable current and voltage compliance

 

Having issues making a current source with limited voltage compliance for an ideal charge pump in a PLL circuit. The methods of clamping the Source max Vc using a diode and voltage source or Zener diode create spikes which disrupt the loop. VCCS or 2 terminal G source would work. 


Re: LM324 based automatic voltage stabilizer circuit simulation

 

4 boost, 1 in-out, 1 buck

 

boost_1, Ne/Nb: RL1 NC, RL2 NC, RL3 NC

boost_1, Ne/Nb: RL1 NC, RL2 NO, RL3 NC

 

boost_2, Ne/Nc: RL1 NO, RL2 NC, RL3 NC

 

boost_3, Nd/Nb: RL1 NC, RL2 NC, RL3 NO

boost_3, Nd/Nb: RL1 NC, RL2 NO, RL3 NO

 

boost_4, Nd/Nc: RL1 NO, RL2 NC, RL3 NO

 

in-out, Ne/Ne: RL1 NO, RL2 NO, RL3 NC

 

buck, Nd/Ne: RL1 NO, RL2 NO, RL3 NO

 


Re: LM324 based automatic voltage stabilizer circuit simulation

 

Off topic

 

When I started designing and producing mains stabilizers for the local consumers, around 4 decades ago, I used LM324 with trimmers to activate the relays properly (much like the one discussed here).

 

In my latest designs, I use the old MCU ATmega8A. It ADC pins read both the mains voltage and the output voltage as well. Trimmers are no more needed. I followed two topologies: old conventional and digital.

 

The MCU conventional design takes 1 relay for each boost tap and 1 relay for each buck one, besides 1 relay for protection (connected at the input, not the output as in the old designs). For example, if the transformer has 5 boost taps and 1 buck tap, the transformer has 7 taps (1 for in-out) connected to 6 relays (and the protecting one). Its advantage is that the transformer is cost effective.

 

The MCU digital design takes 4 relays (+1 for protection) to achieve 11 boost steps, 1 in-out, and 4 buck steps, total 16 steps (typical input from 120 to 285 Vac, to output 220 +/- 10V). Similarly, with 5 relays, we get 23 boost steps, 1 in-out, 8 buck steps, total 32 steps. But it is better for the latter one to use triacs instead of relays (that is 10 power triacs instead of 5 relays). Its disadvantage is that the transformer costs more than of the conventional design.  

 

As most engineers are doing, I took advantage of the SMPS availability (say 24V, 1A) whose input can vary from 100 to 240V, to supply my boards. But I had to also design a small circuit to increase this range. By connecting it between the mains voltage and the SMPS input, the range becomes from 70 to 400 Vac.

 

Thanks to LTspice, I was able to test every design before drawing its final PCBs. I substitute the MCU by logic elements.


Re: LM324 based automatic voltage stabilizer circuit simulation

 

On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 02:39 PM, Bell, Dave wrote:

The boost/buck question depends completely upon the taps of TR1.

I believe there were 5 taps in the drawing, labelled A … E.

If C was defined to be the 220VAC (Phase) input, then there would be two boost taps (D, E) and two buck (A, B).

Almost, but not quite.  One of the pins is the common, leaving you with 4 pins for choosing the input:output transformation.
 
A is the common.  The input voltage may be applied between pin A and:
  • pin B, leaving you with C, D, and E as "boosted" output voltages;
  • pin C, leaving you with unused B, or D and E as "boosted" outputs;
  • pin E, leaving you with only D as a "buck" output (other pins unused).
There is also the straight-through one where input flows to output without passing "through" the transformer (but is also applied between pins A and E so that other circuits receive power).
 
So you get one straight-through, plus potentially five "boosted" outputs, and one "buck" output.  I don't know if all seven combinations are selectable but those are the potential ones.  On top of that, the right half of the schematic disconnects the output, presumably for under/over voltage conditions that can't be corrected.
 
Andy
 


Re: LM324 based automatic voltage stabilizer circuit simulation

 

The boost/buck question depends completely upon the taps of TR1.

I believe there were 5 taps in the drawing, labelled A … E.

If C was defined to be the 220VAC (Phase) input, then there would be two boost taps (D, E) and two buck (A, B).

I didn’t trace the relay contacts to try to figure out the “nominal” 1:1 configuration.

 

Dave

 

From: LTspice@groups.io <LTspice@groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy I via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2024 11:03 AM
To: LTspice@groups.io
Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [LTspice] LM324 based automatic voltage stabilizer circuit simulation

 

On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 01:13 PM, MD MUBDIUL HASAN wrote:

..., I also need to understand this circuit can operate with over and under voltage or not. "cut off" situation is important.

I might be wrong, but it looks to me like this circuit best provides a voltage boost.  I guess there is one choice for voltage reduction.  So, it might not be a good choice for handling an over-voltage situation from the mains supply.

 

I don't understand what you mean by "cut off" situation.  What is "cut off"?

 

Andy

 


Re: LM324 based automatic voltage stabilizer circuit simulation

 

Am autotransformer is modelled as several inductors in series, paying attention to the “start” marker.

Once the inductors are lined up, write one “K” directive, to define the coupling among them; typically, something like “K1 L1 L2 L3 L4 0.98”. The stray single winding is handled exactly the same way, and should be one of the L’s in the K directive..

Regarding the winding “start” indicator: It will not appear until there is a K statement referring to it, so you may need to flip polaraties after they are all placed and the K statement is in place.

 

>> Exactly, well said Dave. I think I can do it here if necessary. 


On Wednesday, December 25, 2024 at 08:18:58 PM GMT+1, MD MUBDIUL HASAN via groups.io <mdmubdiulhasan@...> wrote:


I might be wrong, but it looks to me like this circuit best provides a voltage boost.  I guess there is one choice for voltage reduction.  So, it might not be a good choice for handling an over-voltage situation from the mains supply.
>> It depends on how you sense the voltage at the input, is it HIGH or LOW,
   I will come with another circuit which might be meaningful.

I don't understand what you mean by "cut off" situation.  What is "cut off"?
>>I do mean at low and high voltage compared to 220VAC( few % fluctuations) the load will be diss-connected from the system or it will be "on-hold" for a period.


On Wednesday, December 25, 2024 at 08:03:32 PM GMT+1, Andy I via groups.io <ai.egrps+io@...> wrote:


On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 01:13 PM, MD MUBDIUL HASAN wrote:
..., I also need to understand this circuit can operate with over and under voltage or not. "cut off" situation is important.
I might be wrong, but it looks to me like this circuit best provides a voltage boost.  I guess there is one choice for voltage reduction.  So, it might not be a good choice for handling an over-voltage situation from the mains supply.
 
I don't understand what you mean by "cut off" situation.  What is "cut off"?
 
Andy
 


Re: LM324 based automatic voltage stabilizer circuit simulation

 

I might be wrong, but it looks to me like this circuit best provides a voltage boost.  I guess there is one choice for voltage reduction.  So, it might not be a good choice for handling an over-voltage situation from the mains supply.
>> It depends on how you sense the voltage at the input, is it HIGH or LOW,
   I will come with another circuit which might be meaningful.

I don't understand what you mean by "cut off" situation.  What is "cut off"?
>>I do mean at low and high voltage compared to 220VAC( few % fluctuations) the load will be diss-connected from the system or it will be "on-hold" for a period.


On Wednesday, December 25, 2024 at 08:03:32 PM GMT+1, Andy I via groups.io <ai.egrps+io@...> wrote:


On Wed, Dec 25, 2024 at 01:13 PM, MD MUBDIUL HASAN wrote:
..., I also need to understand this circuit can operate with over and under voltage or not. "cut off" situation is important.
I might be wrong, but it looks to me like this circuit best provides a voltage boost.  I guess there is one choice for voltage reduction.  So, it might not be a good choice for handling an over-voltage situation from the mains supply.
 
I don't understand what you mean by "cut off" situation.  What is "cut off"?
 
Andy